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| First CnC purchase looking for opinions http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10106&t=56685 |
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| Author: | Mayco05 [ Tue Jul 16, 2024 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | First CnC purchase looking for opinions |
Hello, I’m in the market to buy my first CNC machine. I was originally looking at the shapeoko 5 and the onefinity elite but I just saw on amazon that Fox Alien came out with a new XE pro with better rails for much less then the other two. I know that the fox alien isn’t really comparable to the Onefinity or shapeoko because those are definitely better machines. But i was wondering if anyone thinks I should buy the XE-Pro to learn on that one then possibly upgrade in the future? I will mainly use it to make cutting boards, trays and wood signs to sell at local markets. I also will be using it to make guitar bodies. Should i just spend the money on the better shapeoko or onefinity, or since its only a part time endeavor save and learn on the cheaper fox alien? Thank you for your help and guidance Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Durero [ Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First CnC purchase looking for opinions |
My opinion, based on the past 15 years of self-taught CNC struggles... I would start with software first, as that's usually where a CNC user spends 95% of their time. If any of the machines you're considering come with CAD software of any kind, try to download a demo and draw some examples of the stuff you want to cut. I originally bought a Carvewright, which was extremely inexpensive 13 years ago and comes with excellent all-in-one CAD/CAM software. Cutting accuracy on my early version of the machine is not good enough for the fret slotting accuracy I desire, but the current version of the machine probably would be. https://carvewright.com If you're considering a machine that does not come with CAD or CAM software then try some CAD software yourself and try to generate some cutting files to try on a friends CNC or a makerspace CNC. I use Rhino3D and its plugin called Grasshopper for everything. Fusion360 is also quite popular. I can't overemphasize how valuable it is to try the drawing (CAD), generating tool paths (CAM), and cutting process before you buy a machine. It will teach you what is truly valuable for you in a CNC machine and worth paying for. For example, manual tool changes on the CNC machine at the luthiers school I attended quickly became frustrating and lead me to search for a machine with an automatic tool changer. With more experience I later realized that a simpler and much less expensive tool height sensor would have given me almost as much relief from the fiddly and inaccurate manual tool changes I was doing. |
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| Author: | Mayco05 [ Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First CnC purchase looking for opinions |
Got it! I have actually started learning the software but the one i’m using is called shaper 3d. I have a few designs already made but i have never used CAM software, i was going to learn that while i had the machine because some of them come with certain machines. Thank you! What machine would you recommend? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Durero [ Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First CnC purchase looking for opinions |
Sorry Mayco I pressed "submit" before I was finished typing. Edited my first post to finish it as I intended. Other than considering the Carvewright as an inexpensive option, I don't have any recommendations as the bigger CNC I use now is no longer made. Edit: another thought, regarding starting cheap and upgrading later, I've actually done that and would not recommend it unless you're able to use the same CAD/CAM software for both machines. |
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| Author: | Mayco05 [ Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First CnC purchase looking for opinions |
I actually didn’t even think about the fact that there may be a difference in the cam software between the machines. Thank you Durero, I appreciate the insights and tips. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | rlrhett [ Wed Jul 17, 2024 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First CnC purchase looking for opinions |
I’ve been using CNC for my guitar building for over 15 years. In that time, the mechanics of desktop CNC machines have become fairly standardized. There is nothing wrong with the mechanics of the fox alien CNC machine. Although, you will likely want the linear rail upgrade. It makes a big difference in the rigidity, and rigidity is the whole game. I also agree that the key to CNC is not the machine but learning the software. Most hobby machines do not come bundled with proprietary CAD CAM software. Virtually any commercial CAM software you get will be able to modify the generated G code to suit whatever machine you buy. Most desktop machines use Grbl, a near universal open source controller. I can’t think of a CAM package that doesn’t have a Grbl post processor. I have spent years trying to learn how to model the precise but organic shapes that make up a guitar. Years more to develop efficient tool paths and processes for holding down the wood —given my machine’s limitations. But you really can’t figure out what the real world issues are until you have a machine and you break some bits. In my opinion, you really just have to buy a machine and live with it for a year or two to figure out how to use it as an effective tool. The final consideration is size. The fox alien machine is too small. It has a maximum envelope of 16 X 16. I find the best use I get out of my machine is for making necks. For that I need a minimum of 18 inches. My machine, one that I made for myself, has a cutting envelope of 18” x 20“. Carving the heel of an acoustic guitar while the neck blank sits on a fixture requires 12 inches of Z travel, at least 6 inches of clearance, and special extra long bits. I could not find a desktop machine with sufficient rigidity to be able to do that even if I could specify it for those heights. You will likely have to learn to do acoustic heels in two pieces and mate them together later. For everything else on a neck, a CNC machine is excellent. It also does inlays, electric guitar bodies, machines brass and aluminum plates, and is great for building precise jigs. Pretty much any machine with linear rails, aluminum extrusions, and ball screws will be good enough for woodworking and light aluminum machining. Being able to control the spindle speed is also very important. Find one that has a variable speed 1.1 kW or 2.2 kW spindle. You will outgrow the laminate trimmer very quickly. Good luck. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | Mayco05 [ Wed Jul 17, 2024 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First CnC purchase looking for opinions |
Thank you so much rlrHett i really appreciate the detailed response. I haven’t ventured into building acoustic guitars because it seems more daunting then electric but your point about height is well noted. I’m considering pulling the trigger in the Fox Alien xe-pro because i know that one is upgradeable to longer linear rails. But I’m going to check yhe height before anything Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First CnC purchase looking for opinions |
As CNC experience goes, I probably have the least of anyone on the OLF who can say that they use a CNC machine. I bought my first used machine several months ago. Let me share my newbie thoughts with you, since I have recently gone through a lot of the same things you are thinking about. When it comes to advice about the actual machine purchase, you will mostly see two camps. One camp is the “spend the money now and only cry once” camp. The other is the “figure out what you are doing on a less expensive machine, then later upgrade” camp. I fall into the second camp, and here is why: I think it takes some time and hands on experience to figure out what will constitute your ideal machine. Moreover (and this is the kicker), your ideal machine is likely going to be a machine that costs $10k if you buy it new. For most folks, spending $10k on a machine they are going to learn on is too big a hurdle. But as I said, you really need to get some experience on something. So, I recommend buying a bit more modestly for your first machine, use it to learn how to go from design to actual cutting, then figure out your balance of cost and capability, and later upgrade to something that fits you better. For your machine purchase, I recommend buying used off of Facebook Marketplace. There are sooooo many people who upgrade, lose interest, experience work or life changes, etc., and need to sell a decent machine at a big discount. You may have to drive a few hours, but boy, you can save some money. For software, I recommend buying a version of Vectric Vcarve, then going to Lutherie Academy (Robbie O’Brien’s online instruction website) and buying the CNC course. At first, I choked on the price of that course, but it is the best money I have spent on learning how to use a CNC machine. So, short version: Facebook Marketplace for a used machine to learn on Vectric Vcarve Lutherie Academy CNC course Upgrade later, after you figure out which end is up My own journey down this road? I bought a used Stepcraft D840 to learn on, dug into the Lutherie Academy course, then tripped over an insane deal on an Avid Benchtop Pro 2436, which I am picking up today. The Stepcraft was a $5k machine I bought used for $2.5k, and am selling to a friend for roughly the same price. The Avid is a $10k machine I am buying for $3k. Now that I understand what I value in a CNC machine (having tinkered and learned a lot on the Stepcraft), I don’t see upgrading from the Avid anytime soon, if ever. But, we’ll see. Only time will tell. Good luck! |
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